Barry Green

Mastery & The Inner Game of Music

Barry Green is a writer, performer and teacher. He was principal bassist for the Cincinnati symphony for 28 years. He’s coached hundreds and hundreds of people on their performance, not just the practical but the inner game. He’s an endlessly fascinated and inspiring musician who’s been on a lifelong quest and exploration of musical mastery. He’s the perfect guest for us to have on.

What you'll hear about

  • Barry's 3 books: Mastery of Music, Bringing Music to Life and The Inner Game of Music
  • How Barry became involved in the Inner Game and then how he applied it to music
  • The principles of the Inner Game
  • How Barry has worked with these principles in other professions as well as music
  • The principle of ‘relaxed concentration’ that creates optimal performance
  • How to practice using inner game principles
  • How to deal with distraction and increase your focus
  • The importance of detail and paying attention
  • The value of trust in your work
  • An indepth look at how Barry coaches musicians
  • The principles of awareness, commitment and trust
  • How our aim is to ‘become’ the music and get out of our heads
  • A deep look at Barry’s study of the body, voice and rhythm that led to his book ‘Bringing Music to Life’
  • A look at Barry’s mentor Francois Rabbath
  • The value of vulnerability
  • ‘The moment of go’ - core defining moments of your life.
  • A look at Barry’s incredible project: Anna’s Promise, Anna’s Way and Anna’s Gift.

Big thanks to Jason Heath for the intro to Barry Green.


‘Every time you throw something away, it frees you up to see something else’.


Anna’s Promise highlight videos:

US Army Orchestra, August 18, 2016 Premiere
2 minute 40 second Trailer: Anna’s Promise

8 ½ Minute Story Highlight Video:

SPCA: Anna's Promise Complete performance: 55 minutes (not necessary for link probably)
Combo + Strings  August 12, 2016

Anna's Gift Trailer: U. of N. Texas. Eugene Corporon Conducting.


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Jack: 00:00 Today I've got a really, really cool guests, someone who I think I probably read first when I was about 15 or something like that and wonderfully he got in touch with us. Um, this is the kind of Nice thing about having a blog because it's been online for awhile, is that you start getting people who you weren't expecting getting in touch with you and it's very cool. However, I have to thank, uh, um, uh, Jason Heath for putting me in touch with him. Uh, Jason has a blog over at doublebassblog.org and Jason met Barry Green, today's guests at a conference and a Barry then sort of got in touch with us and we had a little chat and decided to do a podcast together. For those of you who don't know barriers, a writer, performer and teacher. He's. He was the principle basis for the Cincinnati symphony for I think 28 years.

Jack: 00:44 And he's coached hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands of people on performance. Not just the practical side of stuff, but the inner game of, of stuff. And that is the book that he is most well known for the inner game of music. He's endlessly fascinated and just inspiring really with all the stuff that he's done and is currently doing and just really, I suppose you can define them as someone who's been a lifelong quest on a exploration of musical mastery. So really he's just the perfect guest to have on. So a massive thanks to Barry Green, not just for coming on today, but really just being one of the main people along with people like William West knee, uh, who've inspired Tom and I to create this platform on musical mastery. Thanks Barry. And thanks Jason here for introducing us and I hope you guys enjoy the podcast. So, Barry, thank you so much for coming on the lien musician podcast, episode number eight. I really appreciate you, uh, taking the time. How are you doing?

Barry: 01:36 I'm doing fine. Thank you for having me.

Jack: 01:39 Good stuff. So it's a big thanks to Jason. He actually, who I think put you in touch with me. I got an email from you a couple of months back because I believe you met Jason a conference. Was that right when you mentioned.

Barry: 01:51 Well, I've known him for a long time. We've had conversations over maybe a couple decades ago and then more recently I've been doing different kinds of activities and we had a more and we've met in person several times to both in Chicago and our base events. So we're now based family. It's to sustain relationships over a variety of forums. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Jack: 02:21 Great. Good stuff. Well, thanks again to Jason. That's Jason Heath. Is it doubled base bloke the org. Um, so we'll do the standard thing very, um, if people haven't heard of you already, um, we, I'd love you to give us kind of an overview of, of what you do. You're a bass player, but you're, you're also a writer and a workshop leader and many of the things. Give us an overview of kind of your current work today and what you're up to.

Barry: 02:44 Well, you just said it. There you go. Okay. I do wear a few hats. I mean, my performance career, uh, is on the double bass. I was a principal basis with the Cincinnati symphony 28 years and active also as a teacher at the conservatory and Cincinnati and always involved in a collectic and unique double based programs. And while I was in the symphony, especially from 1980 to the present, um, well though I'm no longer currently with the symphony, but after 1980, I first was exposed to the inner game teaching on a leave of absence actually at Indiana University and uninvolved with the inner game of music. I read my first inner game book at that time and was profoundly impacted by how relevant these concepts were for me as a teacher and as a player. And so from that point on, I continued to play in the symphony for another 15 years.

Barry: 03:58 But the symphony was my laboratory for exploring the concepts of concentration, which are the embodiment of the inner game of music, primarily based on eastern philosophy and the work of Timothy Gallway who wrote the inner game of tennis. And so I began to divide my passions both in music as a base principle player and as a soloist and as a teacher, and explore the concepts of the inner game, which have to do with how we maintain our concentration on what we're doing and turning out the turning away from doubts and fears and other things that interfere and create drama and fear and terror in our lives. Stuff. Um, so from that point to the present, I've been involved in not only issues of exploring the concentration with a mine, but, um, the body and the human spirit. And since 1998 99 when I relocated in California, I wrote two more books on the human spirit called the mastery music and bringing music to life, uh, which had to do with the human spirit as they say, and the body and the last work bringing music to life, which is essentially a methodology for physical skills very similar to the inner game but for the body.

Barry: 05:44 So these three topics make up mind, body and spirit. And I remain active as a teacher based teacher is a base soloist. And then performing clinics and residencies, um, there are a lot of traveling to music institutions, music schools, teacher trainings, conferences, conventions, things like that where I'm a engaged as a speaker or a clinician, uh, uh, doing work in the mind, body, spirit field.

Jack: 06:18 Right. So, I mean obviously it sounds like the, the time when you discovered the inner game work was a fairly defining moment in your, in your professional career. Would that be fair to say?

Barry: 06:30 You know, yes. It was a wonderful

Barry: 06:37 venue for me to network and learn from not just bass players but all musicians in all areas, um, and people in the arts that included dance and drama and many other fields as well. And so it was an opening and then having completed the work, the inner game of music was actually published in 1986. But I began the research and working with Galway in 1980. That took three to four years. And then ultimately with the publication and then beginning to do engagements, then I got to be a part of a larger artistic community, which is my source of my own inspiration, which is lead one thing leads to the next, because I would never be talking to doctors or golf professionals or scientists or, or creative people in music. Uh, had I not written the inner game of music.

Jack: 07:39 Yes. I'm really particularly interested in those three years that you were working with Timothy Gallway on, on preparing, I suppose for you writing the book, what kind of, what was your first contact with Timothy that way? And then, um, what, what did those years look like?

Barry: 07:56 Well, when I

Barry: 08:01 am exposed to something that's really, really valuable, I'm very aggressive at acquiring it for myself. Uh, it, it's a necessity. So for example, uh, not currently looking for an instrument, a string bass, I'm very happy with the instrument that I've had for 23 years, but I've recently, um, played in and pro am ready to acquire something because it's better than what I have. And once I have the sites and if it's doable for myself, nothing's gonna stop me from doing something that's going to help me be better at what I do. And so when I saw the potential and the power of the inner game for primarily my teaching because I really wasn't a basket case with nerves. I mean it's not like I had this terrible problem that I couldn't play because I was distracted by my own doubts and fears. But I was very much involved in teaching and its relevance in everything.

Barry: 09:05 Also non musical things. It was like, it's a consciousness. I mean it's based on eastern philosophies. So Zen principles have been around for thousands of years and some people live their life by these principles. We are applying them very specifically to the performance or the pedagogy of music. And so, um, in doing that, there is a lot of potential and power for that. So when I saw that, I got very excited. I just called Timothy Gallway on the telephone. He lived in Los Angeles and I'm originally from Los Angeles. Even though I was in Cincinnati and I would go home to see my parents and I would have a way to meet with him and so he just told me that many people approach him to do the inner game of everything and that, um, he would be open to meeting me but not for the purpose of writing a book or just riding on his successful coattails.

Barry: 10:06 And he said, if you're interested in music, inner game of music, not the inner game of Bass, he would be certainly open to meeting me and exploring that because it needed a ground roots exploration. You can't just do a translation of the tennis book into music and say, oh, this technique would mean this with the piano or this with a bow or this with your breath. Um, and so it involves a ground roots discovery. And he said, if you're willing to go teach piano lessons and voice lessons that work with choirs and orchestras and in general, I'll guide you. Um, but also without any expectation that we're gonna work together. It's just for exploring from an original place where this applies to the arts. And then we'll talk about this exploration and I'll mentor you as we go through this time of networking with other artists in the arts.

Barry: 11:17 Um, and that consisted of, um, I would go out home to California and he will be doing a tennis training and on why to teach and then he'd go out in the golf course and then he talked to business people and telephone operators and I would learn the pedagogy side of the inner game from Galway. And then I would do my own work over the next literally three years and teaching and during that time. So presumably you, you're taking these kinds of concepts back into the, into the teaching room. Exactly. I was doing my homework, you know, um, and I had and that took courage frankly, a man because all I did was teach bass and play the bass prior to that. And who am I to go out there and start looking at teaching piano lessons or working with acquire a. It was not in my training, uh, but the methodology and observing Timothy Gallway, uh, express these principles to groups and to students was a very direct transfer.

Barry: 12:22 And if I stuck to the process of just helping a person help themselves, it was pretty simple. It was remarkably simple and effective. And ultimately when I could observe his teaching, uh, I could go back and I could teach with his techniques, even tennis players, um, how to play tennis when I'm not a tennis pro and all. And ultimately Timothy Gallway came to university of Cincinnati and did it. We did a masterclass together when we were. This was after we had worked together for several years and, um, and he gave a masterclass that was like an Isaac Stern massive masterclass or you menu in or whatever you think this guy was some master musician and nobody onstage new or care that this guy. That's another thing about music. And the reason was, is he stuck to the process. A very simple process.

Jack: 13:22 So give us, give us a, for the, for the sake of listening, as you haven't read your book. And I kind of overview of that process and have the inner game.

Barry: 13:30 Sure. It's really quite simple. It's the studying of three skills that come through the experiences of the individual. And so it's, it's essentially learning and discovering through your own attention in your own awareness. And so these three skills are called awareness skills, commitment skills, interests, skills, and we're striving for a combined state of what we call relaxed concentration, which is what everybody has experienced in one way or another, and in some kind of a skill set, but not necessarily all the time, but it's a state in which were both calm and, and at rest and at peace with ourselves. And yet at the same time alert in such a way that we're able to bring to this moment, to this performance or to this lecture or to whatever it is that we're doing. Everything that we've learned, it all comes out in a real natural way without any distractions.

Barry: 14:37 We're just in the zone as you might say. So that's our ultimate goal. And we get there by clearly, um, um, amplifying our connection to the artistic activity. And in this case music, so we make the music louder and we drown out the distractions of doubts and fears. And we do that through these three windows of skills and the awareness skills have to do with just paying attention to what you're doing, noticing what's happening, don't do anything, just check it out, listen, look, feel, understand what you're doing. And once you are amplifying the sound, you hear what's wrong and you know exactly what to do. And amplifying Orthofi that's three concentration. And exactly rather than obviously amplification literal or look, look what's going on. Something wrong. You look down there, you see your fingers in the wrong place. It's pretty simple. Um, and uh, it's like my mother would tell me, they'd go clean up my room and I say, my room's fine.

Barry: 15:51 So then she says, and she says, your towels on the floor, your clothes are all over the place, you know, this is here. And I said, okay, I understand. I get it, I'm going to do it. But she had pointed out to me because I didn't see it. When you're looking for something, you'll find it. So those are awareness skills, um, if you hear a feel anxiety or here distraction, uh, you redirect your attention and to what you notice right there in the moment with what's going on with yourself and that oftentimes solves many problems. Then there's commitment skills which has to do, reminding yourself with just what it, what is it that we're supposed to be doing? And that involves how does the music go? Um, how are we applying it, you know, are you using the fourth finger or the third finger? And so often when I'm doing coaching, I would ask the person they would have a problem and keep missing a passage and I'd say, well, how are you doing this?

Barry: 16:51 And they don't know, or one time they play it one way and then play it another way as have you made up your mind how you're, what's going to happen? And then once they clarify that, then I just have them put on a nike tee shirt and they just do it. Simple as that, uh, or the same thing to do with the music. Have you thought about how you want this to sound or have you thought about what you're doing and sometimes they don't have a clear idea with how it goes, and so once they are committed with this is how the music goes, this is how I'm going to do it, the challenges are solved, it's done, and they just go out and do it. It's an execution and that takes place before you play. Very often you need to really know in advance what is the character are there and the connection to your artistic challenge.

Barry: 17:51 And then when you're clear on that, you come out and it's like put your game face on. You're in the zone and you'd go out there and you just do it. Awareness skills. The first skill I mentioned, uh, take place during the activity they put you in the moment. Commitment skills are in advance of that moment knowing what you're doing. And finally, there's what we call trust skills, which is the most difficult single word to describe the activity because the word trust can be used in a variety of ways. And with the inner game, we use the word trust as a metaphor as to what best represents the energy that's going on in the music. And so instead of trusting the allegro tempo or the 32nd notes, or, uh, some Italian, meaning we trust the calmness of a lake or we trust the excitement or we trust the beauty and the newspaper, or we trust the song or we trust the way our favorite performer plays it, or our teacher plays it with such confidence and such excitement. And so the true energy, the true inspiration of a, of music comes from someplace and it means something. And when we could access that directly, that's more trustworthy than something that's giving us difficulty. And it's not what we call blind press. We say, okay, I trust that it's going to work and I hope it all worked out. Um, that's blind. But trusting something specific that inspired the music is very concrete. And that brings out a part of us that we can connect with that becomes the music at the same time.

Jack: 19:44 That's a really. Yeah, that's a fantastic way of sort of spinning it all, kind of elaborating on the concept because this is all of those things I think most people could understand when reading, but obviously implementing something like, you know, if you were just to to think of the three points, awareness, commitment and trust to actually take those into the practice room yourself without the help of a teacher such as yourself or someone else who teaches the inner game stuff might be quite hard. And I'm just interested in those first years when you started taking this stuff to your, your students into workshops, did you find that difficult? Getting it across to people, those, those ideas who people who hadn't thought about it before?

Barry: 20:23 Well, the more I did it, the more I expressed that, the more I experimented with it, the more experience I got in and making something simple, guide somebody, uh, it got easier and easier for me in the beginning. I May, um, explore several things in different directions before I find, well, this is making a connection. Let's go down this alley. Penned on the person

Jack: 20:48 or is, did you find that there are specific and useful ways to get something,

Barry: 20:53 you know, commitment or awareness across to people. Um, it comes from me being sensitive and reading that person, uh, and so, uh, and the experience certainly helps, but it is remarkably simple and it's immediately effective. You know, the inner game skills are there mental skills. So in some ways it's like mental health. It's, it is immediate. As soon as you understand something or you see something or you feel something, it comes through your eyes, your experience, and you could retrace that step. And so for me, I am kind of, pardon the pun, but getting in their head and looking at what they see, sensing what they feel, um, understanding what they would they understand and I can direct them based on my experience to see what I see because I'm noticing something that they're not. And as soon as they become aware of that, Bingo, it's done.

Barry: 21:56 It's instant, it's 100 percent effective and it never has changed. And I've been doing this for 33 years according to I think 33 years. Um, and um, but you have to do it honestly, and you can't do, you can't use techniques with an agenda to make them successful because that's literally an outer game. It's not in the music. The three skills of awareness, commitment and trust are all about music and they don't have words. Okay. And the things that get in our way is a language and a fear and something specific. And so we're trying to do everything we can to silence the voice and, and become that music, which is a non verbal experience. It becomes a feeling and an energy and that's what we, what we're striving for. And it's pretty simple. Um, so, uh, we get more efficient at using the techniques, the more techniques that I have used, the more, uh, like Timothy Call galway calls it a toolbox that you carry with you, uh, that you can, uh, save time and making an intelligent choice rather than doing something that's not as effective. But anything along those lines is, it moves us away from anxiety and moves us into the music. The only question is how efficient and how quickly we can get to real core of the, of the energy.

Jack: 23:41 So I'm sure that there may be some people who are listening who, who might think or that might be a danger of them thinking that this is the sort of thing that's reserved for people who are in their intermediate to more advanced stages of music making. And I'm sure you'd probably say that that's, that's not true, but for someone who's beginning and starting out, whether they're for kids or whether they're adult beginners, how, how does one start thinking and applying this kind of stuff in that, in that practice?

Barry: 24:08 Well, that's a very interesting observation. It's actually the reverse of what you're saying because what we're doing is we're reducing the challenge to a child like experience, um, because children do not worry about all the stuff that adults worry about. And so wouldn't it be wonderful to just discover everything on your own and just play with, with fun? Um, that's what we're trying to do. So in a sense, inner game is Kinda like a Suzuki or a or an or for a, a, um, um, a Suzuki inspired experience for adults where as were we, and we have to use the same kind of language that we would use with children, but put it in an adult form. Um, so we're drawing on and familiar associations for mega things that we've done, things that were comfortable with and a real comfortable state of mind. Can you get samples of the well, um, when I spoke about the trust skills, instead of playing the 16th notes, you know, making a range our play the line or play the energy or play the explosion, uh, when it comes to awareness skills that has to do with listening to the sound, the difference between louder and softer, faster and slower, uh, when it comes to playing rhythm, uh, and if you're rushing, just paying attention to the pulse and notice whether you're ahead or behind.

Barry: 25:42 You don't have to be right, you don't have to be wrong. You just have to be aware of where you are. Uh, these are just so simple things. What are you doing? Haven't thought about it. Well, let's think about it. Well A, is it this or is it that giving a clear choice and they make a decision based on a. I like it this way. If they're not sure, play at one way, play it another way. You like this better than it becomes their experience and they don't have to think about it. They just do it.

Jack: 26:14 Yeah, absolutely. So would you say this is something that then kids are naturally good at this approach to practice? Or do they need help with things as well and their way of way of going about

Barry: 26:25 improving? Absolutely. It, it's, you know, it's a childlike way of communicating through an adult language and adult intellect. And the only difference is that we bring more x physical skills and more understanding, but the understanding sometimes is the same thing that gets in our way. Yeah. So that's. But I do not want to minimize the importance of knowing what you're doing and making mature and uh, interesting solutions which adults can do from, from their lifetime of experience. So, um, it's not about just throwing all your instruction out the window and just going into land and playing unconsciously and you do find that on the other extreme as well, you know, you find a carefree and disciplined approach, but the commitment is the discipline side. So you've got to know what you're doing and you got to know how you're doing it. And so this does that mean you don't have practice or you don't have to study or you don't have to being conscious of what you're doing and sensitive as well.

Jack: 27:47 So, so since writing that book, you've obviously written to more and you've, you've worked with that for years and what's the kind of. Where has that taken you? You mentioned you worked with scientists and obviously people in business and a whole load of different areas. Can you give us an overview of the kind of, the places your work has taken you outside of music?

Barry: 28:08 Well, the inner game, and it was a fun experience because I once did that session, I did a music session for golfers, golf professionals and it was an example of nonverbal teaching and I would teach a golf professional how to play the bass with tape over my mouth. Uh, so there's no words, put a base in their hands and get them to follow me through their own experience by looking, by listening, by moving. And I would get them to be able to play. Mary had a little lamb on the base. I'm within five minutes, sing along while they're playing and dance at the same time to Iraq accompaniment. And, and that was pretty unheard of. And we did a similar thing at a conference of doctors have a pulmonary pulmonary doctors at a medical convention where they're all caught up in their, their technical ways of communicating the function of the lung.

Barry: 29:11 And um, and so I gave them an inner game approach, including that, that nonverbal base lesson. And um, they made their translations. And in the process of doing that, you get to meet these people and they talk and a whole different way. Um, um, but what's even more meaningful though is the, um, the people, uh, from the non string world that I would get to meet and work with singers and actors and dancers because I never had really a reason to walk into their studios. Now I think I've learned so much from them and you know, if there is the purest form of this kind of teaching, it comes to the world of theater, of drama, of teaching drama. Because we are actors. I mean the script is our music as a specific script. And obviously actors have, are using a language to communicate something very specific and our language may be less direct.

Barry: 30:20 You know, it may be less specific, it's more, uh, it can be specific like in theater and in musical theater and opera and song. Uh, but when you get with instrumental or symphonic or jazz or folk music or stuff, sometimes it's not so specific. But the challenges in the way the people in theater, in, uh, in the stage communicate to get themselves out of the way of their own, um, agenda and get into the personality of the energy and the role that they're playing are precisely, uh, effective and useful for musicians. And then when it comes to dance, I'm using the body. I mean, the whole purpose for I believe for musicians is to communicate, uh, energy, uh, communicate that to our audience and, and it's coming channel through us. And so it's a physical experience and some people think all they need to do is play the right notes, the right rhythms.

Barry: 31:31 So, um, and that's, that features strongly in bringing music to life. Presumably. That's true. Could you give us an overview of that? But because I haven't, I haven't read that and also tell us where we can get it because I was looking for it as well over the last few weeks and I forgot where you mentioned I could buy it, right? Certainly. Well, bringing music to life is literally the inner game for the body. And it comes from this premise that I'm mentioning right now, which is that when we communicate effectively and theater or dance or music, it is a physical experience. We have been in a engulfed in that world and we've, uh, we're living that experience and so it's physical and so it's got to come to have a physical spirits, it has to be delivered from somewhere and it, and there for me is a direct hundred percent relationship between what you see and what you feel.

Barry: 32:31 And when you see nothing, you don't feel the same things that you will feel when you see something and when it's closer to you and have the same size and the closer you are to that, the more effective it is including touching. But we can't necessarily experienced that all the time. So that's the premise. The methodology of bringing music to life is actually quite similar to the inner game that we're striving for a goal. The goal is to bring the music to life, is to feel the energy. And how do we do it? We explore through three different windows of the body, through the master skills. In this case has to do with our breath and our voice, uh, the rhythm which has to do with the pulse in which we're communicating, whether are doing a very, very, very fast or if we're specifically emphasizing something that's very important.

Barry: 33:34 Um, and um, I mean rhythm is the key. This is really the language of our communication and, um, the movements that we express, um, we could express rhythm with movements, but we also express different energies like aggressiveness or calmness or smoothness or seductiveness or, uh, all of the possible things that, uh, are in the human expression. And so those are the three areas that we actually study with the purpose of acquiring a higher level of skill than what we already have. Um, it's different and a little more challenging than the inner game because the inner game is mental and it's instant. You know, when you become aware of something, you see it, you do make the change immediately. But when we're dealing with voice skills, how we use our voice or how we hear the voices in our head or how we balance the music in our head with the music that we're playing with our hands through an instrument, a, this is a different discipline and it requires practice.

Barry: 34:48 And so for me, developing the inner game, the inner game of the body, or bringing music to life, I took four to five years and studied so many movement disciplines, um, Tai-chi, dance, Latin American, every, a yoga, all the physical, different skills I could, I could experience. I took voice lessons. I took drumming lessons, uh, from African drummers, from a, not learning African drumming, but learning about rhythm and how do they live in their world and become such experts of, of, of understanding, of rhythm. And that dramatically impacted the way I performed an approached music as a basis. Um, they changed everything. And to this, to this moment, I might more sensitive because I've had some more experience in studying these disciplines to what I see from other people because I'm, I'm looking at these things and I'm aware of the, of the, of the rhythm, of the energy, of the way they're using their body and the way their voice is communicating through their art as far as availability is concerned. There's both a DVD, a over two hours with groups and individuals, um, and the actual hardcover book, which is an electronic at this point, but it's published by g I a music in Chicago, um, and it's Gia.com, um, and it's very easily available on, on Amazon. But, um, you wouldn't see it in bookstores. They are primarily a music education publisher out of Chicago. But there their materials are our show. It's pretty easy to get.

Jack: 36:44 I'll, uh, I'll put a link in the show notes as well for that. That's fantastic. Sure. So there's a question I forgot to ask earlier, other than the person that we've had so far about Timothy Gallway being kind of a mentor figure for you at some point. What, who, who else in your life and your education has been a kind of figure, a mentor teacher that's influenced you?

Barry: 37:05 Hm. Um, well, there's so many influences. That's, that's a tough one. I mean, as a bass player, even at that same time, my French teacher who's still around amazing. He's in his mid to late eighties, Francoise robot, um, lives in Paris, but he's really from, um, uh, Lebanon. Um, and um, he transformed our instrument and has a comprehensive approach to the, to the base, which is something we have never heard before. But the one thing I not only use his methods and help bring him to America and shares has, has, has um, pedagogy, uh, or even developing is to pella pedagogy, putting into publications with others. But the thing that attracts us to robot is that physical feeling is that when the guy plays a, he goes right into your bloodstream. He hits, he could make you cry. I mean, it's just something extraordinary and so he teaches a technique of playing the instrument, but what the impact is is that he's a profound communicator. Um, and in my work with him over many, many years, from the very beginning, I remember one of the first thing he told me, he says that a lot I really like to do is make cry.

Barry: 38:38 And, and I took that to heart, you know, because he made, made me cry when I played, when I heard him play. Um, and you know, nobody has said that to me before, you know, that that's their purpose is to impact somebody emotionally. Um, I follow that and I, and of course, if you're going to do that, it's got to come from yourself. You can't not make someone else cry if you're not crying yourself, which means you need to cry when you play. If it's some music that is that powerful. And when we see the vulnerability of artists, we want that, you know, that's what we're looking for and that's so powerful. And we want to, we want to have that experience as well. So that was a huge influence for me. And if someone was interested in finding out more about his pedagogy, what would they, what would they go, what would they.

Barry: 39:35 Well, I'm Francoise robot that are, had that.com, but just this Google, frank, f r a, n c o l I s s, Francoise, robot are a, B, b, a t h. his materials are available a lot with liquid music, lab B, e n music.com. And in Europe has published by Duke, uh, many of his recordings. He has endless youtube recordings, but endless other recordings is a phenomenal. One of the other most powerful things. Was it the world of creativity? I'm David Darling, was uh, my mentored as Timothy Gallway was for inner game. David Darling is my mentor for bringing music to life. Um, um, he teaches free improvisation and his organization is called music for people, music for people.org. And um, and what he taught were just what I spoke about. Rhythm. I'm a voice and a movement as a way of, of placing the art of improvisation to the individual rather than into their mind or an instrument.

Barry: 41:02 And we learned how to communicate and make music, whether we played any instrument of our, of our choice or instruments we were even unfamiliar with so I could sit down at a piano, which I don't play necessarily or a drummer or I could do singing or dancing and they'll learn how to communicate through my body through these skills. And that's what I learned from David and it's changed my life. He's a lifetime, a friend and colleague as well. And then the final chapter I did in, I'm actually. My second book was true. Um, the mastery was on inspiration and improvisation and creativity and exploring that discipline. I'd talked to composers and improvising musicians. And that got me into actually exploring the, bringing music to life. But I'm almost every person that I talked to that were composers and improvisors. Uh, it just had such a gravitation of, of energy for myself and inspiration for myself.

Barry: 42:12 And I had, I had take home learning experiences that are just one after the other. Um, a couple of my very favorite things was from this famous female, um, American composer, Libby Larsen, um, where she talked about two things that I kind of use almost in every day of my life. One is to let your trash, the trash can be your best friend. Um, do you get that lead? So with your writer or composer or whatever it is that you're doing, don't be afraid to give up something that's not working. Um, and every time you throw something away it frees you to see something else. Um, especially when I'm writing a that's very, very helpful. Whenever I get excited about something, I know it's wrong and I got to throw it away because there's something more meaningful behind it. Um, and this was, this is, comes up so often, uh, to just let go of things.

Barry: 43:17 Um, and another thing that she also told me, which I, and this is only from like two one hour conversations, um, it was, um, there is what we call a moment of go in our life constantly that we're subjected to infinite impulses and ideas to about a day, perhaps millions or thousands or hundreds. Uh, and the question is that we filter everything. We, we let it come in and it goes out one ear and out the other or whatever. And um, but the difference between an artist or a composer or a really creative person is that when they get an idea, they follow through or they honored the idea. And there's that moment ago where you're take a walk to the park and you see a flower or you see a blade of grass or you smell something and it could change your life. You can make a piece out of that experience.

Barry: 44:22 Uh, um, uh, you could see something in a different light if you pay attention to it. And, uh, David Brubeck a amplified these principles and talking with him, he told me how, how the littlest things, he would compose music by the syllable of a friend's name that he hears or he would write a piece of music based on the windshield wipers, the rhythm of the windshield wipers on his car, but because it was raining or he would, um, get ideas from the most bizarre things, but it was just paying attention to what's going on and using that. And so that's what libby said. It's that moment of go, do you, do you let it go or do you go with it? And that was totally cool.

Jack: 45:11 Fantastic. That's great. Thanks for this. Well, we should start wrapping up soon just because of the time, but it just strikes me, you're obviously someone who's going to is eternally interested in things and studying and absorbing all the time. What are they particularly piquing your interest at? The moment is, have you got another book in the pipeline? What are you, what are you working on?

Barry: 45:33 Well, uh, the last three years since 2000,

Speaker 3: 45:41 uh,

Barry: 45:44 13, I've been exploring a way to combine this pedagogy of mind, body, Spirit with my performance as a, a classical soloists, actually fusion world musician, more or less. And so I've, I have found a new vehicle and exploring a multimedia one, our production concert program that's based on this same kind of pedagogy from not just my books, but in some case even further. And so I created these three stories, um, based on the life of an aspiring artists. It happens to be a female bass player, but that person represents all of us in the arts, whether they're dancers, singers, actors, musicians, uh, her name's Anna. And the three stories include a narrator, a me as a soloist. So I have to become a female that I manage that somehow. And um, um, and either a small Combo, a large symphony orchestra or concert band, they're all three stories, have the vehicles of being a small group or a large group in terms of performing a, with a whole hour's worth of background visuals that place the audience into the whole world that I'm in.

Barry: 47:14 I'm in terms of communicating these inspiring stories, uh, so you could see if the activity is in the mountains, you see mountains, but if the activity is in your imagination, you see computerized graphics, graphics that are not distracting. And so the three stories are called Anna's Anna's way, which is when she's 15 years old and wants to quit music and needs to be inspired, uh, by a teacher. And she studied with a great Thai tea master because so much of our principles are based on this instance, these eastern philosophies. So it's like a karate kid story for music with a tight she master teaching a young, a precocious, impatient, a female bass player who wants to quit, uh, but finds a different way of connecting. And then my second story is, is about discovering passion and expression in music. And it comes a lot from the mastered music, from the chapter on, on passion and the teachings of Pablo Casals.

Barry: 48:22 And it's exploring, um, the pursuit of energy and love in what you're doing. And essentially, casals teachings were devoted to a. You cannot teach it specifically in music. You must teach it in yourself and so we have to create love on stage from the love of nature, the love of people and the love of artistic masterpieces and when we're in love with life than we could be in love with our artistic disciplines and express that. And that's what we need to pursue. Not the specific, a faster way to move your fingers. I'm on my third episode, which is called and his promise it has to do with passing this information on just like what we're doing right now to the next generations and sharing it with other people, the wet our teachers have learned and what their teachers have learned and bringing a consciousness to the entire planet that it's been here for millions of years and we're here for a short time and we make the most of being here, not only for ourselves and for the people that follow us, but for future generations.

Barry: 49:40 Um, and so that's a duty. It's a responsibility and the arts. We were sharing inspiration and joy and pleasure and healing and doing good things. I'm not. All professions are, have the gift to be able to do that. And so, um, this message is about giving back and um, this is the third story that I've been sharing. We're, we're actually sharing this story in 34 countries all over the world with different orchestras in different, uh, national soloists and it's cold and as promise, um, and it's a very inspiring project. Um, so the, the music for me is not about the communication in the presence of music, but I'm actually embracing more. I'm at this place in my life a, a, a message of a legacy of having to do with, well, you know, we're not going to be here forever. Let's make the most of the moment and let's just keep this thing going and, and, and make it as meaningful as possible.

Jack: 50:53 Fantastic. Well, it's a magnificent legacy that you have, seven and really appreciate you taking the time to share it with us today. I'm going to link to all the things that you said in the show that lead musician. And I'm also a, the video that you sent me about Anna's promising Anna's way. Oh, great. So, uh, I'll be in touch with you for, for those extra links and stuff. Awesome. Thank you again so much for your time and we'll speak soon. Okay. It's been my pleasure. Thanks so much.